Town Crier: Don’t use Founding Fathers as justification to take away prayer
by Dave Hardesty
Jul 14, 2009 | 984 views | 12 12 comments | 13 13 recommendations | email to a friend | print
Does the First Amendment mean no prayer in a city council meeting?

“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.”

It specifies the creation of laws to establish a national religion. I don’t see where it applies to a public prayer asking a deity for guidance in crafting decisions and laws and says nothing about what a city council does.

Some use two of our greatest statesmen, Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin, to support their argument against prayer.

Written in the front of Jefferson’s Bible, Jefferson wrote:

“I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus. I have little doubt that our whole country will soon be rallied to the unity of our creator.”

On April 21, 1803, he wrote the following to Dr. Benjamin Rush, a signer of the Declaration of Independence:

“My views ... are the result of a life of inquiry and reflection, and very different from the anti-Christian system imputed to me by those who know nothing of my opinions. To the corruptions of Christianity I am, indeed, opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian in the only sense in which he wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines in preference to all others.”

In the same letter, he wrote:

“To the corruptions of Christianity I am, indeed opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian, in the only sense in which he wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines, in preference to all others.”

On Oct. 31, 1819, to William Short, he wrote:

“But the greatest of all the reformers of the depraved religion of his own country, was Jesus of Nazareth.”

Many say Franklin wasn’t in favor of organized religion.

Like Jefferson Franklin didn’t care for many things done in the name of religion. However he did see a value for religion in our society. He relates this in his 1749 notes (unedited here) that “frequent Opportunities of showing the Necessity of a Publick Religion, from its Usefulness to the Publick: the Advantage of Religious Character among private Persons; the Mischiefs of Superstition, ect. and the Excellency of the Christian Religion above all others antient or modern.”

Franklin sensed a social usefulness of religion but objected to using it to proselytize.

Although a Deist, he abandoned logical Deism when writing that “this doctrine, though it might be true, was not very useful.”

Instead Franklin supported Christianity, as a close associate of Franklin wrote, because it “was highly indispensable to his kind of society.”

He also felt a belief in a watchful God was vital to the education of America’s youth and the morally depraved:

“If men are so wicked as we now see them with religion, what would they be if without it?”

For those who object to prayer or the use of the names God and Jesus Christ in city council meetings and use our founding fathers as justification, please read the “First prayer of the Continental Congress, 1774.” It’s apparent our founding fathers didn’t have a problem with it. Also, both houses of Congress and our own state Assembly have invocations before they start business.

The words, “separation between church and state” do not appear in the constitution. In a letter to the Danbury Baptist Association on Jan. 1, 1802, Jefferson used this phrase while assuaging their fears the government might institute a state-sanctioned religion.

Much later the Warren court, in the 1960s, incorrectly took Jefferson’s comments out of context and then reinterpreted the First Amendment to include individuals and not strictly limiting it to the government as originally intended by the Constitutional Fathers.

Discussing “the wall of separation between church and state,” Chief Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court William Rehnquist wrote:

“The metaphor of a wall of separation is bad history and worse law. It has made a positive chaos out of court rulings. It should be explicitly abandoned.”

Let the majority of the citizens of this country, those who align with beliefs in a benevolent deity, keep prayer at City Council and not impose the will of minority beliefs on them.

• Dave Hardesty, a satellite communications engineer and former Tracy planning commissioner, is among a select group of local residents with columns in the Tracy Press.
Comments
(12)
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anonymous
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July 17, 2009
I recall a time at work when a co-worker passed away. Some people wanted to talk about their co-worker and some wanted to pray. Nobody said it was inappropriate. After the tradgedies like 911 and New Orleans people prayed. Nobody thought it was inappropriate. I do know of businesses that do pray and in these tough times, I really can't blame them.

By the way, if you are watching the game with co-workers it probably depends if it's a Superbowl vs. Opening Day? I don't care about football much, so I would probably just look around when you are praying for your team. Hope you won't be offended by that too?
briandub
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July 17, 2009
I think this issue is pretty simple. Ask your self if saying a group prayer prior to your next staff/budget/sales meeting at work is appropriate. If not, its probably not appropriate at a city council meeting.

Save prayer time for when it matters. Like before the nominations are announced for the Grammy Awards or prior your Superbowl game. He already has enough on his plate then to worry about our pot holes. He needs to determine who will take home best new artist, best pop album and perhaps the winning quarterback of the big game.
KDK
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July 16, 2009
The 1st Amendment was designed to protect religion from government, not the other way round.

And I'm glad to see the 'separation of church and state' attributed correctly for once!
anonymous
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July 15, 2009


Wait a minute:

"why? wrote on Wednesday, Jul 15 at 11:22 AM »

Bottom line, it is not about what you believe or I believe. Following the word of the LAW. The constant disregard of the LAW from the city hall and the council members is the issue!

"

why,

There are NO laws in America that agree with what you are inferring. Invokations are NOT against the law' in this country (this is the United States of America). Hope this information helps. If not google 'the Constitution of the United States of America' and read up. Then get back.
anonymous
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July 15, 2009
briandub,

Invocations shouldn't favor a particular political idea or a vote. That would be a disaster if done that way. Hope this information helps
anonymous
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July 15, 2009
"Let the majority of the citizens of this country, those who align with beliefs in a benevolent deity, keep prayer at City Council and not impose the will of minority beliefs on them."

While I dont really see the reason for a prayer prior to a council meeting, I guess it could have its advantages. When pressed for answers on potential failed policies, members could simply respond "but we prayed, and if it wasnt to be,then god should have told us so"

That being said, one would hope that god would be busy stopping natuaral disasters and feeding the famished instead of guiding the city leaders on the option of builing a super Wal-Mart, a swimming club and other life altering decisions.

I would say more, but I have a meeting here at work. We are discussing a change in our sales process and if I dont get to the meeting in time, I will miss opening prayer.

briandub
why?
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July 15, 2009
No the minority comment was all yours!

"Let the majority of the citizens of the country, those who align with beliefs in a benevolent deity, keep prayer at City Council and not impose the will of MINORITY BELIEFS on them".

Screw the minority... Yeah, for the majority (who believes the same as you).

Your comment says it all!
why?
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July 15, 2009
Bottom line, it is not about what you believe or I believe. Following the word of the LAW. The constant disregard of the LAW from the city hall and the council members is the issue!
Dave_Hardesty
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July 15, 2009


No why? I believe you missed the point of the summary esoecially with your comments about what I said about the minority and their belief system. I didn't say that, it came out of your mind only. If you want to see a full explanation of my comments to you I recommend you go to Benigno's Prayer and council shouldn’t mix piece.

Dave Hardesty
why?
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July 15, 2009
Your summary is the point - The council chambers are in violation of the LAW by forcing the majority to impose their beliefs on those who are sometimes the minority -

The council (and you Dave) is saying that the minority and their belief system is an imposition.

Last I looked this is America! Religion belongs in the church not the public/civic government.
JimF01
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July 15, 2009
Great information Dave, and you reach a simple and logical conclusion, kudos.
anonymous
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July 15, 2009
Legally, the article (above) makes more sense than the Tracy Press editorial that was in the last paper.

I wonder if the Tracy Press would consider to start putting their editorials in the OPINION column for the time being?

Shelve it. Thank you.



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